The Vestibule (returning soon)

I (like many of you) received the following email from Greg Davis as a reminder to attend what has been jokingly called his "heretic studies" Bible study group:

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Hi all. I know this is really late notice for most of you but I am starting up my "Not Mainstream Doctrine" bible study again tonight at 6:30pm. Everyone is welcome to come and unless it's decided otherwise, we will meet every Monday night, but that is subject to change based on everyone's schedule.

Some of the things we will be digging into are:

• The gospel that Jesus taught to Peter and the 11, is it the same gospel that Jesus taught Paul?
• Who are the saved?
• What is death?
• What happens after death?
• What is Hell?
• Free will, do we have it?
• Much more, including any questions you may have.

These and other subjects will be looked into while we try to figure out what the bible really says.

God bless you all,
Greg

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Being back at Mt. Zion, after spending several years as a "Free-Range Christian," I find myself now looking for those benefits available through fellowship in a Bible study group. After some casual discussions with Greg, I was convinced that his would certainly be a lively (if not downright controversial) table to have a seat at.

After the first evening with this group - which just so happened to run a bit long (which is a good thing, yes?) - I am already convinced that this is the Bible study group for me. Greg seems well versed and ready to share his chosen topics, is eager for debate and open to the free exchange of ideas.

The salvation afforded us through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ is central to this exploration of God's Word so there is little doubt that this honest attempt to determine what the Bible "Really Says" will only lead to a closer relationship with our Heavenly Father. I do hope more adventurous souls will join us in this Bible study.

We have mutually agreed that we will be meeting at 6:00 pm each Monday at the Church and invite YOU to attend. 

Thanks for those kind words Mike. Mike, Dave and I had a really good time talking about the Lord and getting into to some topics that got us all thinking. Jesus is the center piece to everything we discuss. One of my favorite sayings now is that Jesus was, and is, a successful Savior. He came to this world, not to condemn it but to save it. I believe He accomplished that task. I truly hope that whoever reads these posts will join us for some thought provoking discussions. You may not agree with everything I believe, but you will be doing what we are called to do... learn about Jesus.

I think it will be helpful to jot down some pertinent scriptures as we explore this topic... This seems like a good place to start:

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (nkjv)
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Are we on tonight for discussing the two gospels in the Bible, the Gospel preached by Peter and the Gospel preached by Paul?
I found some interesting discussion on the website, For What Saith The Scriptures.

Thanks GregD for the introduction to the e-Sword Bible study software (http://www.e-sword.net/).
I think this will open a whole new world of "rightly dividing the word of truth."

I really like the E Sword sight. I have been listening to Les Feldick on TV in the mornings and I really like the the ability to compare scripture. Also, it is very handy to be able to look up the original Hebrew and Greek words and what they mean. It gives a whole knew insight to Bible study.

I have not spent much time looking at eSword.net but I did recently discover the Sermon Audio links within the program and listened to a couple of random preachers. I am interested now to see what it would take to get Pastor Mike's sermons linked-to in that feature. ;)

The ability to compare scripture is one of the coolest uses of computer technology I can think of. Lately I had been thinking that as mankind expands his understanding of science it stands to reason that a deeper understanding of scriptures should also be at hand. Thanks to tools like eSword the layperson can tackle a lot of research tasks usually undertaken by Bible scholars. 8)

I do want to get more in touch with Les Feldick but for now I will be thankful for the course of study directed by Greg and this class.

Glad to see you out and about Dave T - I pray you are doing well and healing fast  :)

Les Feldick is just now finishing up his study of Revelation. He is getting ready to start  Matthew. It has been very interesting. I have been getting up early in the morning to catch his show. The ability to study The Word and see and hear others opinions is a great tool to try and gain a better understanding of God's Book.

We have been studying the differences of the Gospels preached by Peter and Paul. In Ephesians 3 Paul tells us about the "mystery" revealed to him. He was instructed to preach to Gentiles about the grace of God that had not made been known previously. The following 13 verses goes into more depth concerning this.
If anyone is interested in a small group Bible discussion join us on Monday evenings at 6. It is a very open discussion of the Bible that goes 1 to 2 hours depending on our schedules. We would be glad to see you there.

Ephesians 3 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Mystery Revealed
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles? 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Purpose of the Mystery
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Good Morning Mike, Greg, and Scott,
Mike made a comment at the end of class about how we start our journey in faith and life. Simplified, he likened our start  as almost Jewish in a belief in God and then we transform into a Christianity based belief as we accept Jesus as our Savior. Les Fedick this morning was quoting the Bible this morning that brought that discussion to mind.

1 Corinthians 15:45,46

"And so it is written, `The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening (or life giving) spirit.'"

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."


I have stressed over the years that all through Scripture this is the process - first the natural, and then the spiritual. For example, Adam the natural and then the second Adam which is Christ. Cain the natural and then Abel the spiritual. Esau the natural and then Jacob the spiritual. Another one is King Saul the natural, and King David the spiritual. This goes all the way through Scripture. You can even take it into the end-time in the final seven years. First we have the Anti-christ then we have Christ. In our own experience we come on life's scene as natural, and then when we experience salvation we become spiritual. It is just a fact of Scripture.

Courtesy of Les Feldick, Through The Bible Book 15, Lesson 1, Part 2

Well spoken (or typed, since this is a webpage  ;D) by all. I have been absent from posting in the Vestibule but I am making sure I at least look around every day. FYI - I'll try to be less wordy in the future.  ;D

Thanks to Mike D and Dave T for their kind words about the Monday night class. As they have stated, it's not just me standing up and preaching to you, it's more like a Sunday School or Wednesday night class. We all participate when/if we want to. There is a lot of give and take. It has been fun and very informative for us all.

We should never be afraid to explore ideas or doctrine that is different from what we've always been taught. Paul tells us that we are to study the Word (2Ti.2:15), not just be lectured to. He also tells us that we should be like the Bereans (Act.17:11) and listen to other ideas willingly but make sure they line up with scripture. That is what we do in this class. I too hope that more of you will join us as we learn about what God has said about many different subjects.

Now, commenting on what Dave stated above about first the natural and then the spiritual... I couldn't agree more. That idea is presented throughout the Bible, old and new testaments. If you read a little deeper in 1Co.15, verses 42 - 49 we see that man is created natural and is resurrected spiritual:

1Co.15:42-49  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So what does all this mean? We are natural beings at birth. We do not inherently have eternal life. If Christ would not have shed His blood and died for us, we would parish (see Joh.3:16), we would cease to exist. The Greek word translated parish in John is apollumi which literally means "to destroy fully". Resurrection is what gives us eternal life, resurrection makes us immortal. Resurrection is only made possible now, because of what Jesus did for us.

This is the type of stuff we discuss in class on Monday's. If you would like to get in on some these thought provoking subjects, why not join us, we'd love to hear what you think.

Attention "Not Mainstream Doctrine" Bible Study members:
You can now register for library access. See the post: http://www.deburger.com/vestibule/index.php?topic=75.msg154 (http://www.deburger.com/vestibule/index.php?topic=75.msg154) for more info.

The audio files we discussed are now becoming available to "Patrons" of the library. ;)

    It has been a little while since anyone has posted here, and heaven forbid the impression is given that Monday evening Bible study has thrown in the towel, because nothing could be further from the truth. We have been meeting regularly and have been eagerly seeking divine instruction in many areas of faith and have recently turned our attention to the notion of Universal Salvation.

As we examine the scriptural basis for such a belief our conversation has taken a bit of a turn - as it tends to do when discussing such weighty issues - and we find ourselves seeking what the bible has to say regarding the fate of Satan himself. We are pondering the words of 1 Corinthians 15:28:

    And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Asking the question: Will Satan need to repent and return to God in order for God to "be all in all?"

This is a can of worms with many implications and is fascinating to contemplate and seemingly beneficial to study upon. In a search for articles and discussions regarding these topics Dave found three websites with material pertinent to our investigation and has recommended that we all check them out as possible jumping-off points to further our discussion.

I have gathered these three articles together into one PDF document that is downloadable via the following link:

The source webpage links are:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2012/09/can-satan-be-saved/ (http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2012/09/can-satan-be-saved/)
http://www.biblestudy.org/prophecy/will-satan-the-devil-live-forever.html (http://www.biblestudy.org/prophecy/will-satan-the-devil-live-forever.html)
http://www.bibleresearch.org/articles/a9pws.htm (http://www.bibleresearch.org/articles/a9pws.htm)

Last night in our Bible study discussion we discussed the danger of telling people to "ask Jesus into their heart" when we witness to the unbeliever and the problem with leaving it at that. When it is not stressed in the witness that they must believe that Christ died, was buried, and rose from the grave for their salvation, we open the door for the unbeliever not to believe when all we tell the unbeliever not to actually believe if all they ask is for Jesus to come into their heart.

According to Romans 5: 9 - 10
Romans 10:9 (KJV)
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Romans 10:10
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;..."

Les Feldick in his Bible study says it like this.... "For with the heart man believeth (now I don't want to scare people but I think once in a while we need to self examine. Am I just believing a head knowledge, or am I believing with all my inner most being that Christ died for me?) unto righteousness;..."

Christians sometimes can be confused in this. WHEN we believe then we ask Jesus into our heart so that we can share the love and knowledge of our Lord. It was discussed that this was possibly a shtick and or something that sounded good to the listener. Also that it possibly gained popularity back in the times of camp meeting evangelism.
It seems to possibly be a Bible based thought that idea that through time may have suffered somewhat from the "telephone game syndrome." Humans have a propensity for not being able to pass on with exactness what they see, hear, and read.

I'm glad you recalled that discussion here Dave.

I felt that it was a timely discussion and one of those topics that usually just get "glossed over" when ever it does comes up.

I had mentioned in the meeting that I recently read an article that I found very informative on this topic and your comment has prompted me to find the link to that one I was trying (feebly) to recall:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2014/03/ask-jesus-into-your-heart-a-history-of-the-sinners-prayer-2/

I found the article very interesting, I think you will too.

I liked the article Mike. I think it made the point well that Christians have to be careful not to make accepting God's salvation, as the author put it, "trite." Even Jim Bakker (imagine that) this morning was going off on the meaningless recitation of asking Jesus into your heart. Unfortunately, he began tying other things that we need to do into getting salvation. Salvation is a free gift for believing that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the grave for our salvation. We are saved by God's grace and his grace alone. Nothing we can do on our own will earn or buy our salvation.
We must be careful as children Of God not to trivialize how we get salvation.

Once saved always saved?
I believe this a very good set of verses confirming this idea. King James translation)
1Co 1:4  I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Co 1:5  That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
1Co 1:6  Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7  So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Co 1:8  Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't believe this is a licence to do anything we want. It is God telling us that He loves us in spite of our sins. He tells us that if we accept His gift of grace by believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as our Savior we are saved. NO STRINGS ATTACHED. If strings were attached, then it would also be things we do that ensure our salvation. There is nothing we can do except believe for our salvation.

An interesting article indeed. (SHAMELESS PLUG FOR OUR MONDAY NIGHT STUDY COMING...) This was one of the many topics we discuss in this class. Probably not the most important one, but it can be misunderstood if all we tell people is that they need to ask Jesus into their heart.

It is most important to know why we are asking. If we don't talk about the fact that we are all sinners and only the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus can change that, asking Him into our is... as the article stated... vacuous, meaningless. While asking Him into your heart is symbolic of a personal relationship with the Creator, it isn't enough. It's just a head knowledge an not a real, meaningful understanding of what Jesus did and why He did it.

Great discussion guys.

Mike I thought you might smile when mainstream teachers say some things that we have discussed in our class;even Les Feldick believes in other dimensions according to his show today (11/27/15)
Ephesians 3:16-18a
"That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend ..."

What's the difference between knowledge and comprehending? Nothing, except maybe putting it into action. But if you have knowledge, you can comprehend. And when you comprehend you have knowledge. Let's read on.

Ephesians 3:18b
"... with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; "

Now if I'm not mistaken this was something that Einstein was the first to promote and the world didn't know what he was talking about. He was talking about a fourth dimension. We always live in three. But when Einstein talked about a fourth dimension and his so-called formulas and so forth, the world didn't know what he was thinking. But this is what the Bible says that we are to enjoy. We are to enjoy a knowledge that goes into the fourth dimension.
http://www.lesfeldick.org/lesbk29.html
BOOK 29 / LESSON THREE * PART IV / RESURRECTED INTO THE KINGDOM / I CORINTHIANS 15:24-34

Quote from Les Feldick. TV program 12/4/15, Book 30 - Lesson 2 - Part 1
Rings so true as we study our Bibles. We should always keep an open mind as we study the Word.
Now it stands to reason if you all understand religion. I'm running into it even from our television audience where people's eyes are opened after being steeped in one religion or another. And it's not easy; I'm the first one to empathize with that situation. When they've had something drilled into them ever since they've been old enough to listen, then all of a sudden have someone like myself perhaps come along and show from the Scriptures that they've been taught totally wrong for so long, then it's not an easy situation. We've had people call and say, "Les this is the toughest thing I've ever had to do, but I can see that you're right on from the Scriptures."