The Vestibule (returning soon)

Agreed, Greg. 1 Cor. 15:15-17 spells out the importance of the Resurrection:

15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up?if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

I know you referenced these, but thought I would include for ease.

I was asked an interesting question the other day and I thought I would post it here and invite comment. I won't mention who asked the question but they can divulge their identity if they wish to. Here is the question:

Quote"For those who believe that Jesus is still on the cross/dead doesn't that mean that they should believe that God still sees them as sinners and that their sins haven't been forgiven? If so what is the point in their faith because, in my opinion, aren't they teaching, preaching, and believing in vain?"

I have to admit, I wasn't sure how to answer this question at first. I, like most protestant believers, felt that using the crucifix was tantamount to saying that Jesus was still on the cross, still suffering for sin. It looked like He hadn't finished the work of the cross because He was still hanging on it. So I decided to do a little research.

I found several websites that explain the use of the crucifix. I will copy those explanations to the end of this post but I will attempt to summarize them here. Just to be sure we all know what we're talking about, the crucifix has Jesus on it and the cross doesn't. Roman Catholic (both Eastern and Western), Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran Christians generally use the crucifix in public religious services. But, for simplicity sake, I'm going to use the term Catholics for those who use the crucifix even though there are several denominations that use it.

Basically, what I'm getting from the articles I read is that Catholics prefer the crucifix because it reminds them of the fact that Jesus died for our sins. The image of Him on the cross is meant to drive home the fact that He suffered and died. They do acknowledge the resurrection but for them, the image of Him suffering and dying better represent His sacrifice.

Protestants on the other hand tend to prefer to recognize the resurrection, which of course means that Jesus is not on the cross but has ascended to Heaven.

So, I now understand better the reason for the crucifix. To answer the question though, if anyone believes that Jesus is still on the cross and is still suffering for our sins, then their belief would be in vain. If you don't recognize the resurrection (which you couldn't if He's still on the cross) what are you putting your faith in? Jesus dying for our sins is wonderful but if He isn't risen from the dead, we are lost in our sin because we're going to stay dead (1Co.15:16&17). It's the resurrection that is our blessed hope (Tit.2:13). If we don't rise, what's the point?

Based on what I've learned by reading these articles, I would say that the majority of Catholics (and anyone that prefers the crucifix) don't believe that Jesus is still on the cross, therefore they have the potential to be saved just like protestants.

Thanks for asking that question. It made me do some research and helped me learn something. Even as old as I am, I'm not too old to learn. 

Ok, here is a complete article and then some excerpts from others:

Quote
Why Does the Catholic Church Use a Crucifix?
By Andrea Adams

To Catholics, the crucifix is a powerful symbol that represents the focal point of their beliefs: that Jesus died on the cross to redeem humanity. While other Christian denominations use a bare cross to emphasize Jesus' resurrection, Catholics include the image of Christ's body on the cross to represent his sacrifice.

The Crucifix as a Sacramental

According to the Catholic catechism, the crucifix is a sacramental, a "sacred sign" instituted by the church that prepares Catholics to receive God's grace. For example, Catholics believe that gazing at the crucifix during prayer will help stimulate feelings of hope, love and trust. According to the catechism, a sacramental draws its power from the paschal mystery which is central to the Catholic faith and refers to Jesus' suffering, death and resurrection.

Jesus' Presence on the Cross

For Catholics, the figure of the suffering Jesus is present on the crucifix to symbolize Jesus' death as a powerful act of sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world, reconcile the relationship between God and humanity and make it possible for humans to enter into heaven. They believe it demonstrates that God's love is more powerful than sin and death, and that it can heal and redeem those who turn to him.

The Crucifix vs. the Bare Cross

Catholic writer Patrick Madrid explains that Catholics use the crucifix instead of the bare cross like other Christian denominations because Christ's death is of chief importance. He asserts that "the cross only has meaning because Christ died on it for our salvation." But according to the Rev. Arvin Luchs, a United Methodist pastor, Protestants place the emphasis on the resurrection of Jesus and the "assurance of life beyond the power of death." In contrast to the Catholic view, they believe the bare cross illustrates that Jesus is no longer suffering; rather, he is reigning in heaven. Luchs also explains that Protestant churches historically have avoided the use of images because of the fear that "people will direct their worship to the image and not to God."

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Yes, Jesus is risen and Catholics honour and pray to the risen Christ. He also died on a cross. On that cross He redeemed us and suffered for us. Catholics feel this is extremely important.

An Evangelical friend of mine said:

    Why do Catholics worship a cross? The cross was an awful instrument of torture. It is not something to be revered. You are making it an idol!

The first problem with that statement is that Catholics are not worshipping the cross, they are worshipping Jesus on the cross. Yes, the cross was an instrument of torture, but when united to the body of Christ it takes on a distinctly Christian connotation. That is part of the reason why Catholics portray Jesus on their cross. The cross gains its significance by Jesus' presence on it.

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As Christians (Catholics), when we gaze lovingly upon the image of our suffering Lord on the cross, we are reminded of the depth of Christ?s redeeming love for us. A plain cross just doesn?t have the same impact. The crucifix is a visual reminder of Christ?s battle over sin, a battle in which He is the Victor!

While Christ?s Death is memorialized forever in the image of the crucifix, we believe that our Risen Lord is with us,...

For some non-Catholics, the image of the crucifix is somewhat ?offensive? and perhaps a source of ?discomfort.? Spiritually speaking, the crucifix can help us better accept and live the words of Christ to ?deny yourselves, take up your cross daily, and follow Me? (Mt 16:24). When some type of suffering comes our way, the image of the crucifix can give us spiritual strength and inspiration.

Robin's Closet - Operation Clothing Donation Drop-off
April 8, 2017 - 9:00 AM - 12:00 PM

Need volunteers - If you want to help on the day of clothing drop off please contact Dara DeBurger though pm on fb. leave your name and number.
All sizes 0-3mo through largest Adult size Needed.
Only new or clean, gently-worn, outer garments are requested (no holes or stains, please!)
We are also seeking monetary donations so that we might provide new under garments to those in need.

If you can't make it during that time, please email RobinsCloset@MtZionIndy.org to make arrangements!

Facebook Event Page: https://www.facebook.com/events/422873301438296/

Start Here ==> http://www.deburger.com/vestibule/index.php?board=13.0

Simply click on "New Topic" and leave a message... beep

Handled! http://www.deburger.com/vestibule/index.php?topic=244.0

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Nicely Done

I will look into the Facebook sign-in - but really? Half an hour? sheesh! How hard was it to register for Facebook? They probably had someone spend an hour with them to get that done.

Of course you do not need to be registered to read but you do to post.

The last person to sign-up here was Lindsey - seems like it would come easy to her... When I saw she registered I figured she was hoping to post to the calendar so I elevated her privileges to allow her to do so.

Advertising on Facebook seems like such a waste to me. The best advertising for our website is going to be word of mouth but if our own congregation is not going to use the website what do we hope to accomplish by throwing money at Facebook... We have the ability to target messages already to all of our likely visitors so the problem is not about giving Facebook enough of our money, it is about what are we doing now to encourage folks to get on board. I am pretty much over Facebook anyway so my opinion should not carry that much weight... I will say that Facebook is really "In Your Face" about advertising with them (as far as the MtZionIndy page goes) and I am sure the desire to advertise there has more to do with falling prey to their tactics than any real or perceived benefit that might accrue  by doing so.

(my 2?)

by the way I just learned that to type in a "cent sign" (as above) use Alt+0162

This is a multi-purpose post.

1: I wanted to see if I can post to it.

2: I wanted to see that only the "Technical" department could see the posts.

3: I had an interesting conversation with Pastor Mike last night. He mentioned that he tried to help someone get registered to the forum so they could read and post. He said it took about 1/2 an hour because the person didn't really understand how to proceed. They weren't very technically inclined. So, he asked me if there was some way we could do what other websites do as far as registration goes. They somehow allow new users to register (or log in) using their Facebook, Google or some other internet account. Is that something that is possible to do on our website?

Just a thought.

Mike and I also talked about advertising on Facebook to bring more people to our website. I am going to look into this Facebook advertising but he agrees that using MtZionIndy would be a much nicer and easier way to keep in touch with other church members. Facebook is much to "busy" to find older posts/pictures/articles etc.

Anywho, that's it for my first Techie post. How did I do?