On Baptism...

[Michael:D]

We sort-of started a discussion on Baptism a couple of weeks ago that did not really bear much fruit at the time but did get me thinking in that direction...

In our discussion of "The Trinity" last evening we focused quite a bit on the nature of God the Father. Of course (as is usual) I expressed my thoughts wherein I feel the scriptures point us to the fact: everything that exists, exists within the very essence of God "Himself."

On the drive home I was struck with the thought that in addition to the act of water baptism being a symbol of a rebirth, it also suggests - in a very real sense - the closeness of God the Father to his creation. We are all fully enveloped in the Love of God and just as the water covers the entirety of our bodily form during the immersion so too the sacrifice of Christ Jesus covers us in His grace (in spite of our sins;) presenting to the Father our "being" as free from sin, through Christ.

I will be thinking of Baptism with these thoughts in mind and am anxious to learn how this resonates with the Holy Word...   

[Dave T]

I am glad that we came back to the discussion of Baptism in our Bible Study class. Our discussion opened up a lot of different ideas and thoughts. I do agree that as a body of believers we have somehow put too much emphasis on the water baptism and neglected to put proper importance of the baptism by spirit.
Paul exclaims, "We're all one! Don't divide up into cliques!" And to prove his point, he explains, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (I Corinthians 12:13).
I will be looking forward to continue our discussion next week.

[Michael:D]

Food for thought and discussion...

Understanding Water Baptism! - Pastor Richard Jordan

Thanks Greg for the suggestion of Pastor Rick - I used to catch this guy occasionally many years ago on WHMB (I think) and remember thinking that I must lack understanding or something because much of what he was saying seemed so foreign... Today I am like: Amen, Amen, Amen! 

YouTube carries many of his lessons; I did a search for "richard jordan baptism" and was amazed how many option I had - this video seemed to have the most hits.

I'm with you Dave... good stuff

[Dave T]

I watched a video of Pastor Jordan entitled, "Is Water Baptism For Today?"
He broke down forgiveness into two systems. The first is a performance based system. You are under the Law. You are under the works of the Law and and you are under the curse of the Law. This was given to Israel. The second is a Grace based system. God pays the debt for us. This was given to those of the Body Of Christ. His contention is that water baptism is not needed in a Grace based system of today.

[Dave T]

I watched the second video entitled, The Unseen Realm, that is posted in the Monday (or Tuesday) Evening Bible Study. Scripture from 1 Peter 3 was mentioned.
1Pe 3:18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
1Pe 3:20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,
1Pe 3:21 the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."  (CLV)

According to http://www.studyyourbibleonline.com/bible-study/1-peter/when-and-to-whom-was-1-peter-written/ the Apostle Peter was writing to Christians he had evangelized to. This brings us to our discussions of the Gospels preached by Peter and Paul. Because Peter was not preaching the Gospel of Grace, he is writing in verse 20 and 21 about "baptism, is now saving you." This a direct contradiction to the Gospel that Paul was preaching, salvation by belief in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as our Savior.

The following is courtesy of http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_savj3.htm

Some passages from the NKJ version of the Bible which show salvation by faith are:
1 Corinthians 15:21-23: "For since by man [Adam] came death, by Man [Christ] also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in    Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive."
Romans 5:18-19 "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous."

Paul rejects salvation by good works, as described in various places in his writings. Two of the passages indicating this are:
Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Romans 10:9-13: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." 

[Michael:D]

Very interesting Dave...

The only thing I can say is, The Christians Peter was talking to would have been converted Jews whereas Paul was converting the heathen.

The thing I cannot quite "get" is why would Peter insist on delivering an Earthly kingdom when there is the gospel of grace which promises a kingdom in heaven to those who believe in the Risen Christ. Although there are clearly two gospels contained in the Bible this seems to suggest there are two brands of Christians.

Small wonder there is so much fragmentation within the Churches of today. Seems like Jesus would know the gospel of grace was coming to humanity as a result of His ultimate resurrection and so I have been looking for hints that should be building a bridge between Judaism and Christianity. 

For instance, I like to think Jesus was eluding to God's plan of salvation (apart from the law) in Matthew 6:19-21

Matthew  6:19  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Matthew  6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Matthew  6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Trying to unify both gospels has always been fraught with difficulties but since God is the Savior of all mankind {1 Timothy 4:9-11} there must be a way to do it.

[Dave T]

Seems to me that Plan A was to go to the Jews and teach them and offer them salvation in a more complicated offer. When this was not working and many of the Jews refused to believe and follow the plan presented to them, repent and be baptized, after which they would take the message of the Good News to the Gentiles, God's continuation of the plan was to convert Saul and give him a message of grace. This message, grace, was to be given to the Gentiles who would then take it to the Jews who would be able to partake of this simplified plan.
God had no plan B or C or D. It has always been plan A God's Plan. The message of grace is just a continuation of His master plan.

[GregD]

Great discussion guys. I'm sorry I'm coming so late to the "party".

You guys covered the topic very well. There are only a couple of points I'd like to make.

1: Mike said

The thing I cannot quite "get" is why would Peter insist on delivering an Earthly kingdom when there is the gospel of grace which promises a kingdom in heaven to those who believe in the Risen Christ. Although there are clearly two gospels contained in the Bible this seems to suggest there are two brands of Christians.

My reply to that is that in Acts 15 and Galatians 2 we see the same story from to different writers (Luke - Acts 15 and Paul - Galatians 2). In a nut shell the story goes: certain Jewish believers in Christ as Messiah were going behind Paul and teaching that Pauls converts must be circumsized and follow the law to be saved. Paul called for a meeting in Jerusalem to "discuss" the matter. There was apparently a fairly heated discussion until finally James, the leader of the meeting, said:

Act.15:13&14 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, ?Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

This is what God is doing today, through Pauls gospel of Grace. He is calling out "a people for His name" to create the "Body of Christ" with mostly gentiles (although some Jews will believe too).

We get a little more information about this meeting from Paul in:

Gal.2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

They basically made a gentlemens agreement that Peter and the 11 would go to Israel with their gospel (the gospel for the circumcised) and that Paul would go to the gentiles (the gospel for the uncircumcised). So this is why I believe Peter and the other Apostles never went to the gentiles with Pauls gospel. They had agreed that it was Paul that would do that and they would continue to preach that Jesus was their Messiah and that God would return Him to Israel if they would just accept Him (Act3:19&20 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before...)

As for Mat.6:19-21, I believe this to mean that in the earthly kingdom that God promised to Israel, God will take care of their every need. I think Jesus is saying it's a waste of your time and effort to be worrying over the things of this life when the God of Heaven will furnish your every need in the kingdom. Just my 2 cents. 

You guys covered water baptism very well so I don't have much to add to that discussion except to restate that there is a baptism for the Christian today, it just doesn't involve water. We are baptized into the Body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit (1Co.12:13 - as quoted by Dave already). This baptism identifies us with the death of Christ (Rom.6:3&4 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.) We are baptized into His death, not into water. This is an important difference.

Great conversation guys and again, I'm sorry I took so long to join it.