Leadership and Being Active In Your Church.

[Dave T]

Good Evening Pastor Mike and all followers in The Vestibule.
Below is a copy of a post on FaceBook.
My question is what stand do and should Baptist churches in the U.S. take on this? Also where as a congregation of Bible believing Christians do we(Mt Zion) draw the line or do we draw a line on involvement in the church business, leadership, teaching, and representation of God's church?
I will reserve my comments at this time to let everyone view this and digest it. I am have been battling with myself over this for the last  couple of days. I pray that God leads all of us to make the best Godly decisions possible.

The post:

An apostate pastor in the Bible Belt who leads the congregation that country star Carrie Underwood attends recently announced from the pulpit that not only can practicing homosexuals be members, but those in sexual sin can now fully serve in his church and will be allowed to "marry" at the facility.

"Our position that these siblings of ours, other than heterosexual, cannot have the full privileges of membership, but only partial membership, has changed," Stan Mitchell of GracePointe Church in Franklin, Tennessee announced earlier this month as some clapped and others sat silently in disapproval.



"Full privileges are extended now to you with the same expectations of faithfulness, sobriety, holiness, wholeness, fidelity, godliness, skill, and willingness. That is expected of all," he continued. "Full membership means being able to serve in leadership and give all of your gifts and to receive all the sacraments; not only communion and baptism, but child dedication and marriage."

- See more at: http://christiannews.net/2015/01/30/megachurch-leader-claims-divine-wind-moved-him-to-fully-accept-members-practicing-homosexuality/#sthash.Ypc0lqWp.dpuf

[Michael:D]

Hi Dave T, what a very provocative and controversial topic to throw out here for all the world to see. I had not heard of that particular story before but do know that more and more the subject of homosexuality especially in the context of same sex marriages has been in the forefront of media exposure (in the last several years in particular.)

I know this topic is presented within the "Ask your Pastor" message board but since you addressed all the members of The Vestibule I thought would go ahead and join the discussion and as such, join you in asking the question...

I know this is like opening a can of worms, and conventional wisdom tells us to err on the side of tolerance in all things "gay." Since I am not a Bible scholar - and frankly feel unworthy of the grace afforded me through our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ - I can not readily point to scripture that explicitly condemns the homosexual lifestyle other than to say searching the Bible for references to sodomy will generally get you in the right direction.

There is much about those engaging in same sex relationships that cause me discomfort in the pondering. Likewise there are many other chosen lifestyles that hold little for me to understand the appeal. I know and have known several people professing to be gay and while the thoughts of their personal life is something I tend to avoid; it is the fact that essentially (as Pastor Mike mentioned in his sermon on "Champions" today) we - as human beings - put our pants on one leg at a time (as the old adage goes) and deep down we are all in the same boat here on God's Earth.

Too often it seems that folks with religious convictions are viewed as intolerant when it come to expressing their views on anyone that falls short of the Christian ideal. We are told that "Thou shalt not judge" when in fact we have been admonished that if we do judge then be prepared to be judged ourselves. Since we all sin and fall short of the Glory of God, it has to be stated up-front that to debate these issues, we must look at that fact that pointing out someones sins is only going to result in highlighting our own sins.

That being said... as a married man and a Christian I have a great deal of reverence for the institution of marriage as sanctified by God to create a Holy bond between a man and a woman; in the furtherance of his master plan. I do not feel that just because a person does not join in marriage that they are somehow less entitled to the Glory of Heaven (nor that those couples that do wed are somehow more entitled) it is just that a marriage is not simply a tradition but a way of life that is acceptable in the "sight" of Almighty God. Therefore I am inclined to reject same sex unions as being the same "spiritual bond" as that devised for Adam and Eve and would personally reject any Church Leader that would treat it as such.

If two gentlemen (or two ladies) wanted to join in a civil union I personally have no qualms in their being able to partake of civil benefits bestowed on a "Married" couple - this being absolved in the "Render unto Caesar.." admonishment as far as I'm concerned. But for a Church to attempt to equate them, Biblically?... That for me, is a line that should not (really, can not be crossed. )The story you present strikes as more of a recruitment effort by that church (and has certainly garnered some attention - as if having Carrie Underwood in the congregation wasn't enough) and likely has little to do with some "New Awakening" in Christendom.

As for having sinners in leadership roles? ... Where would we all be without them?

[Dave T]

Good Morning,
This topic is for everyone to weigh in on. Michael:D discussed this topic yesterday before church service and we both agreed we did not want this topic to be a hateful or bashing discussion. To all that want to offer their thoughts on this topic, please keep this in mind.
That being said, there are multiple references to read in the Bible. I googled Bible's stand on homosexuality and
was able to view several sites offering up a multitude of information. Leviticus 18: 22 says, "You are not to lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." (NASB) Is this sin any greater than any other sin that it should carry exclusion in the operation of God's church? If one steals paper clips at work are they any different than a person engaging in a homosexual lifestyle? Are they any less qualified or called to be leaders and teachers and voters in church?
I have certain thoughts about this. But I will have to admit that I have had to pray a lot on this subject for God's guidance in my responses.
I have more to say about this topic, but I would like to keep my responses short enough that people will want to read them and give me time to think and pray.
Now that I have opened up this can of worms please free to ad your two cents in.

[Dave T]

As I was reading this morning I found a verse that is very appropriate for our discussion.
James 1:5, (KJV), "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

[Michael:D]

There is only one unpardonable sin as far as I know and that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (and that may be worthy of a discussion of its own.)

My prayerful searching has brought me the the following passage that likely shines a Holy Light upon this discussion:

1 Corinthians 6 (NKJV)

I'm guessing Church policy probably pulls heavily from those words...(?)

[Dave T]

By not allowing someone who is openly homosexual to have full membership(What is full membership?) in the church or not allowing them to be Sunday School teachers are we judging them? What about someone who is having a heterosexual relationship outside of marriage? What about someone who is a drunkard? The list goes on and on. Are certain people allowed to be in important positions in the church while others aren't?

[Michael:D]

Following the rules does not necessarily qualify as being judgmental (in my estimation)... When the carnival worker stands the potential thrill-ride passenger next to the "must be this tall to ride" measuring stick, the ride's attendant is not passing judgement so much as they are assuring adherence to established rules.

Rules exist for many reasons and the various interpretations of rules presented in the Bible is one big difference for the many various denominations. If rules are continually reformed and relaxed for the comfort of the congregation then the church will devolve into an organization that comes mighty close to crossing into the "unpardonable sin" zone...

Heaven help us.

[PastorMike]

Hey everyone! Sorry it took me a while to weigh in on this. Looks like there is already a really great conversation regarding this topic going on!

The thing is, there are a few topics being discussed at the same time. I think if we break down those topics it will give us some clarity on the issue.

1. Is homosexuality a sin?

This one is pretty easy to answer. The Bible says unequivocally 'yes'. As Dave points out, a quick Google search will make that much evident to us. In fact, homosexuality is one of the few sins given the label "abomination". That word is defined "a thing that causes disgust or hatred". That is how God feels about this. Despite all of the conversation in the church today about this topic, it is really difficult to explain that one away. This also answers the question of same sex marriage a no-brainer for me. There just isn't any way that God would bless such a union.

2. Are some sins worse than others?

This is really the second point of discussion. It is true: In God's eyes all sin is equally bad. "10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10) Human beings are pretty good at grading on the curve. We set the bar at whatever our current behavior is and anyone who falls beneath us is somehow inferior. This is also true of the church - perhaps more so in these days we live than ever before. I think we need to be reminded that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) and "9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." (Hebrews 2:9)

That said, I also think its true that we, as human beings, must address sin here in differing manners. Dave mentioned the guy stealing a paper clip. Stealing is stealing. Stealing is wrong. Therefore, in stealing that paper clip that guy sinned against God. God sees all sin as unacceptable. So, He sent Jesus to die for that man the same as he did for the murderer. However, it would be silly for us to equally punish, here on earth, those men equally. One guy is a threat to other people, the other guy (based purely on the paper clip incident) is not. That brings me to perhaps the most wrongly interpreted verse of all time:

Matthew: 7 ?Judge  not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother?s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ?Let me remove the speck from your eye?; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother?s eye.

Those living a sinful lifestyle love to quote this verse. It isn't saying we shouldn't judge human behavior - it is simply saying we should not be hypocritical in doing so. As I said earlier, we have a knack for overlooking our own sin while quickly pointing out all of the flaws we see in another. How can this mean we shouldn't judge at all when it ends "First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." A big part of Christianity is holding one another accountable - but we must do so in love. That is, having their best interest in mind.

3. Can homosexuals serve in church leadership?

I think this must be differentiated from general serving. Could someone who was homosexual attend our church? Absolutely! We are called to love sinners and hate sin. Everyone sitting in the sanctuary on Sunday morning has messed up. Could someone who was homosexual serve in some capacity at our church? Sure. Sometimes the way that people grow closer to Jesus is through serving. We focus on changing behavior a lot in the church. I think we should focus, rather, on the soul. Once a person has a genuine encounter with Jesus, my experience says that He - and He alone - can affect lasting change on them. I've seen it time and time again.

But, leadership? That's different. In leaders the bar must be set higher. While leaders are not and will never be perfect, they must be giving it their best to live in a way that is pleasing to God. I do not think that someone living the homosexual lifestyle fits that bill. But, that is not the only lifestyle that would keep someone from serving as a leader at Mt. Zion. Anyone living in open opposition to what the Bible says would be disqualified.

For me, the only grey in this entire conversation is whether or not church membership should be extended. This is the area in between attendance/entry level service and leadership at our church. While I would certainly give it more prayer and seek wise council from people who know more than me before making this decision in real time, it is quite likely I would not recommend someone living an open lifestyle of homosexuality for membership. And - again - I would feel similarly about anyone living an openly sinful lifestyle. To join the church in an official capacity requires an agreement to do our best to live a lifestyle that is pleasing to God.

That's my take on all of this. If I didn't address something specifically Dave, please feel free to ask away.

[Dave T]

Thank you Pastor Mike for the input. I hope that as this conversation continues that others will also jump in to the discussion.